Breeding the Lines, a Successful Long-Term Strategy ~ Part Four

by John Fetters

© 2013 Fetters Setters, all rights reserved

George H. Ryman-bred English and Irish Setters, circa. 1937

It is never short of amazing to me to hear all of the talk,  all of the grossly mis-informed opinions, all of the petty gossip and "cheap shots" directed towards field trial-bred English Setters and their owners.

Although (as stated here previously) the field trial English Setters of today differ greatly from those of the past, the individuals involved in breeding these fine dogs should be showered with much praise for a job well done. For if it weren't for past selective breeding processes and the countless hours of proving their stock, the English Setter as we know it today would not have evolved in such a positive direction in the first place. 

And the "type" of English Setter gun dogs that George H. Ryman bred would not have been even remotely possible.

The learning process for me has been an interesting one, especially where breeding is concerned.  Knowing what to look for in an English Setter gun dog that will "nick" and be compatible when doing an "outcross" for the first time ~ and find that all the resultant pups from the whelping are  uniform in appearance and doing what they are supposed to do at six months of age ~ is proof positive that experience is a good teacher. 

And that is what has always counted in breeding great English Setter gun dogs.

Sportsmen are always asking me how I manage to consistently breed  English Setters with such stunning conformation, an English Setter gun dog with correct size, an English Setter gun dog that develops early and is heat-tolerant and able to hunt day-in and day-out, no matter what the cover or weather dictates on any given day.

My answer is: I was fortunate enough to have had a good, devoted and patient teacher in my great-grandfather. He taught me much and instilled in me to never get caught up in the "norm" of what everyone else is doing  ~ and the fact of thus having several generations of English Setter gun dogs in my blood,  and the opportunity to breed and raise my first litter at the young age of five under my great-grandfather's guidance.

Through the years I have seen many English Setter gun dog kennels come and go, many of those who claimed to be breeding English Setters in the "George Ryman tradition" and many who claim they know all about George H. Ryman and the history behind his work. 

To those individuals, I say: the records and in-depth documentation of my family's long history of breeding, raising and training English Setter gun dogs ~  the indisputable truth and hard facts ~ far outweigh anything that has been produced by any other breeder or self-styled "writer" or "author" to date.

In a letter to my great-grandfather, dated September 16, 1947, George H. Ryman mentions that he is no longer going to use the in-bred English Setters in his breeding program. He states that he is concerned about where his line of English Setters are headed due to the influx of line-breeding being incorporated by far too many purchasers of his English Setters.

Ryman also stated  good breeding and bad breeding has proven that the "good breeders are few,  not many."

Test breeding when used in conjunction with the age-old evaluation process has proven time and again that this is the only proven way to know just where any particular breeding program is headed when taking on the task of breeding any young male and/or female for the first time, or outcrossing to bring vigor to a line, then holding onto the resultant litter for a six-month evaluation period  to see if that outcross was a success or failure in regards to hunting abilities, stamina, heat tolerance, uniformity, and conformation, etc.,  before offering them to the sporting public. 

My great-grandfather and George H. Ryman had much success with outcrossing to the Commander line of field trial English Setters, due to their long history of producing offspring that exhibit natural hunting abilities and have a very high degree of heat tolerance. 

With that in mind in the early 1970s, I was hoping to find a good male and female of good size with good confirmation exhibiting traits of being manageable in their ground pattern in search of game. I also found it necessary to locate some new blood that would be compatible with those old bloodlines used by my great-grandfather and George H. Ryman ~ an outcross which conformed to, and would be a comparable continuation to the bloodlines my great-grandfather and George H. Ryman bred.

With this specific goal ~ and knowing from years of experience what to look for ~ I spent countless hours  searching for a proper outcross that would blend perfectly with the English Setters in my kennel. In talking to countless breeders and trainers, I ultimately went on the road to many field trials where I  followed the many hundreds of braces of English Setters that carried the bloodlines of the past successes in outcrossing that were used by my great-grandfather and George H. Ryman. 

My search led me to the renown English Setter breeder, Mr. Irv Monkern, owner of the Glad Acres English Setters kennel. I was fortunate and blessed when I made my selection from one of Mr. Monkern's litters at four weeks of age,  a male tri-color pup out of the breeding between Glad Acres Brock ex Kelcey's Girl Friend.

At seven weeks-old, Double Barrel Prince came home with me. Prince was a natural on wild birds from the time he was six months of age, and as a sire, his striking conformation and fifty seven pound short-coupled frame and natural wild bird instincts were passed on to every pup in  the eleven litters he sired.

A certain Idaho English Setter breeder who attempted to lay out the history of the English Setters George Ryman used in his breeding program was ~  almost ~ dead-on with their information. I have every one of the English Setters they mention in the background of every single one of the English Setters I breed. More, in fact, than any other current (or relatively recent) English Setter gun dog breeder. 

Feel free to use the links below to look over the breeding behind some very special English Setters, the unequivocal result of five generations of my family's English Setter breeding experience:

Double Barrel Prince, nine-generation pedigree, 
Willie Walker Pedigree Database

Grouse Knoll Penney, nine-generation pedigree, 
Willie Walker Pedigree Database

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Breeding the Lines, a Successful Long-term Strategy ~ Part Three

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by John Fetters

© 2010 Fetters Setters, all rights reserved

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Have you ever given any thought to why there is such a wide variance in uniformity of English Setters from within the same litter?

Over the past 20 years I have noticed these differences cropping up at an alarming rate. The differences in size and weight, length of coupling, length of tail, ear set, head conformation, eye and nose pigmentation, etc., just to name a few.

Now, while we are only addressing the above mentioned differences at this time, these outer differences also genetically carry over into the scheme of things in regards to the hunting qualities as well, and will be addressed later.

I have always said, anyone can breed a male to a female canine and produce a litter of pups and consider themselves breeders just because they had success in doing so. This natural act happens all the time between male and female strays and I wonder which one considers themselves to be the breeder, the male, or the female?

The popularity of a breed or particular strain as well as a particular color from within a breed or strain has always been the determining factor of milking the life's blood out of quality genetically sound breeds of dogs.

A prime example of this started in the early 1970s and was carried out until the mid-1970s with English Setters. During that time period, white and orange setters became the rage and setters that were perfect Orange Beltons were priced higher than their white and orange littermates. Everyone wanted white and orange setters, especially perfect Orange Beltons.

The first to cash in on this breeding practice were individuals who knew that breeding two white and orange setters together always produced white and orange offspring. Once word got out, self-proclaimed breeders were cropping up all over the country overnight to get on the bandwagon to capitalize on this golden opportunity.

While this type of breeding was heavily capitalized on by the inexperienced and unknowing as a golden opportunity to make money, it created a nightmare in reference to the genetic quality of the resultant offspring being produced.

Breeding white and orange setters generation after generation brought about many genetic problems, unseen problems that were tucked away and hidden, just waiting to surface in future generations of breeding.

The same is true in regards to setter breeding programs that line breed the same bloodlines using the same genetic influence time and time again, generation after generation after generation.

Good sound quality line breeding is a basis for setting up the blue-print for the direction you want your breeding program to go in reference to such things as health, conformation, size, weight, coupling, bird sense, stamina, etc.

You can only get so many miles of success from line-breeding, once you reach that peak the genetics begin to go in reverse and this is when breeders begin to run into those hidden genetic health issues along with the wide variances in the uniformity of dogs from with-in the same litter. Continue on the same course using the same genetics from with-in the same or similar bloodlines for too long, breeders will face disaster.

Through the years I have heard it all in reference to breeding and the quick-fixes breeders are undertaking to try to solve the ongoing problems they encountered along the way.

As an example to one such "Quick-Fix" a breeder from Idaho states they have searched for years for an Old-Fashioned type Llewellin setter of good size with good conformation to breed to one of their best female setters. Upon finally locating such a dog to use as a stud, they state in their advertising that they "think" this will be a good breeding.

While this breeder's statement may sound appealing to the otherwise unknowing perspective purchasers of pups from that breeding, it does not prove anything in regards to what the actual genetic attributes of the resultant litter will be.

When a breeder makes such a statement based only on what they "think" the litter will be without first holding onto the entire litter for six months to a year to evaluate the qualities of each individual pup on "wild" game before placing them with new owners, all the breeder knows is that his female produced a litter sired by a good looking Old-Fashioned type Llewellin setter stud dog and (hopefully) they were all sold. This feat being based far more on old-fashioned hype than actual knowledge and experience in consistently turning out fine setter shooting dogs.

While this particular breeder is also one of those who claim to have studied all the pedigrees of the setters George Ryman used in his breeding program enough to understand what it takes to replicate similar setters to those Ryman produced ~ while actually having none of his present stock having consistent uniformity of conformation nor even appearing similar to the outstanding setters bred by George Ryman personally ~ they should give some thought to the following quote from George Ryman himself:

"Now that we are in the middle of the Century, after an elapse from 1925 up to 1940, a period of 15 years. I again saw I would soon need a new cross of setter blood. While I did not like to go back to the inbreds, I was more than fortunate to secure by great luck a fine son of Champion Sports Peerless.

"I then considered the cost and the time and labor it would take to breed several litters of puppies from the fine combination I had bred. So I took on the great task and it was a Golden chance I took but it has paid the expected dividends in at last getting a better setter dog on gamebirds, yet with such strong healthy supreme type shooting dogs. After I first tested experience with the Sports Peerless cross puppies raised till a year old, many were brilliant shooting dogs on game with very little work.

"Again there is proof in the natural instinct of a far more stronger quality produced. When you study the pedigree's down I was wise to always use the best bitches that could be bred, which were highly trained on game and shot over heavily. So if I had ten generations of nothing but the best bitch blood, no weeds, bred over to the Sports Peerless cross, I was able to hold to the level bird finding pointing instinct brain with true beautiful English setter type with such color and coat."

There are no shortcuts or quick-fixes when it comes to breeding great shooting dogs. It takes time, and what I mean by time doesn't mean breeding sire's to dams that are only hunted on weekends or two weeks straight during the season on a mix of preserve birds coupled with a few wild birds thrown in along the way.

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Greatness in setter shooting dogs comes to the surface when they are developed from the ground up through test breeding and the evaluation process on wild game on a daily basis and should therefore be the determining factor when selecting the breeding stock for any breeding program.

If a setter is not blessed with wild bird "savvy" his or her best genetic traits are never shown nor passed on to his or her offspring, and if these genetic traits are never shown, those traits will never be appreciated because they will never in fact exist.

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Breeding the Lines, a Successful Long-term Strategy ~ Part Two

by John Fetters
© 2010 Fetters Setters, all rights reserved

George H. Ryman shooting over Ryman's Birdy Anne,

a 47-pound short-coupled Setter considered to be

the "perfect Ryman Setter" according to

George H. Ryman's standards and ideals.

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Breeding quality setters is more involved than just planning a breeding between a sire and dam and being dependent on a pedigree alone, especially when a breeder pays too much attention to the ancestry back beyond the third generation and off the right edge of the pedigree.

Mistakes are also made when a breeder plans a breeding around a pedigree based on the looks of the sire and dam and hopes these two factors will far outweigh any problems cropping up in any of the off-spring along the way.

Anyone can breed dogs and produce litters. However the problem with such undertakings is that the breedings are based on producing high volume and making money instead of the long-range effects that will most certainly occur.

One of the most prevalent effects of this flawed breeding strategy I have noticed over the past ten years is the lack of uniformity of puppies from within same litter.

This predominatedly includes setters with differences in size, conformation, tail length (from very long to curled or sickle), undershot and overshot bite, as well as a lack in proper eye and nose pigmentation.

There is also an ongoing problem of Thyroid trouble with female setters as well as problems in male setters having only one testicle at maturity.

These problems are cropping up on an alarming rate due to un-informed and inexperienced breeders who just breed for whatever happens (breed "paper" rather than breed good gun dogs) for the sake of making money.

In his time, George H. Ryman bred, raised, and trained setters which suited his ideals of what he thought a setter shooting dog should be.

Ryman accomplished his goals through hard work and dedication to his setters on a full time basis. His daily routine revolved around his dogs with no other job standing in his way.

During the Ryman era of hands-on breeding, setters he selected for his personal shooting dogs were uniform in size, weight, and conformation. His personal preference for males was 50 to 55 pounds and females 45 to 50 pounds, short to medium coupling, proper length of tail, correct eye and nose pigmentation as well as good coat length and color.

These ideals were based on his famous male grouse and woodcock setter shooting dog, Ryman's Racket Boy and his famous female grouse and pheasant setter shooting dog, Ryman's Birdy Anne (shown above in photo in the field with George H. Ryman). These two setters were the "perfect Ryman Setters," according to George Ryman.

Today we see individual breeders grasping at straws in an attempt to promote and sell a setter using the Ryman label, using labels such as "Ryman Style," "Ryman Type," etc.

These breeders' ideas of quick fixes are to rely too much on looks and pedigrees alone, coupled with using modern day bloodlines that in no way come close to any of the bloodlines Ryman had at his disposal.

Another idea some of these breeders employ is to go the route of trying to achieve overnight success through bringing in outside bloodlines of the American Llewellin Setter in an attempt to scale down the cumbersome oversized setters in their line- breeding programs.

Again, this is just breeding "paper," for whatever happens and ~ does not solve the ongoing problems that already exist from within the lines. This is not a serious dedication to breeding quality setters by any stretch of the imagination.

Again, it is no more than simply grasping at straws to promote a product overnight for the sole purpose of selling that product to the unknowing purchaser.

Unfortunately this include the breeders who are out there offering puppies at astronomical prices ~ breeders who aren't concerned with quality breedings, but rather who are more concerned with well-financed and well-publicized marketing adventures to make money.

Good breeding doesn't happen overnight by throwing a male and female setter together to have litters, no matter what the "paper" trail behind them.

Good breeding takes time and patience and a willingness to test and re-test through repeat breedings, as well as holding onto the resultant offspring from those breedings to hunt over before one can say they achieved anything in regards to offering a quality setter shooting dog to the interested sporting public.

Breeding "perfection" ~ recent Fetters Setters litter

consisting of four Blue Belton and Tan-Ticked, three

Blue Belton and three Orange Belton ~ eight females,

two males ~ the Dam is a four-year-old perfect Orange

Belton, a mirror-image of Ryman's Racket Boy, George

H. Ryman's famous Grouse and Woodcock shooting dog

(all puppies have been spoken for, no inquiries, please)

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Breeding the Lines, a Successful Long-term Strategy ~ Part One

by John Fetters

© 2008-2009 Fetters Setters, all rights reserved

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Pictured above, Ryman's Racket Boy, bred by George H. Ryman,

although a male, a near mirror-image of the setter shown below
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Pictured above, Fetters-bred "Grouse Greta," a 42-pound, fully

trained Blue Belton female, shown at 16 months old in 2009
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After many years of breeding, training and hunting the "Ryman" setter lines on a variety of "wild" game bird species and obtaining exceptional results, I noticed some time ago that I would need to introduce new blood into my lines which would be compatible and blend well with that which I already had achieved.
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However I did not wish to introduce the same blood being used on a regular basis by a vast majority of other present-day breeders ~ as the resultant offspring from those lines were not headed in any direction I would be satisfied with. .

As a matter of mention here, during this time I turned away a number of other breeders who contacted me out of interest in breeding to my shooting dog lines. .

The lines I was breeding ~ and which generations of my family before me also had bred ~ had everything a "Classic" shooting dog must have: that being heart, drive, speed and the required stamina to hunt for hours upon hours each and every day and in any type of cover, no matter what type of weather conditions were encountered on any given day.
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During my endeavor, I also did not want to risk losing the "Classic" good looks and working qualities of what I already planted; and so I did not care to follow the same breeding path being undertaken by other breeders who were (and are) breeding setters like the resultant setters made available during the "Calkins" era ~ which began in 1955 and has continued with highly varied results to this day.
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While the "Calkins" scheme of breeding was and is even today an easy method of breeding to produce a large beautiful English Setter through the use of modern day Bench and Field lines, the resultant offspring does not measure up to what a George H. Ryman bred setter once was and still should be. .

I find these types of setters to be more suited to the sportsman who has a busy schedule and limited time to spend afield ~ and not so suited for the serious upland game hunter who spends hours upon hours afield.
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With the above observations in mind, I started doing test breedings through the introduction of new blood from the best imported blood with an infusion of the old Wing Commander lines.

After a lapse of time ~ from 1999 to 2006 ~ I finally reached my goals in producing an even better "Classic" setter shooting dog which is even more in keeping with the same type of setter shooting dog George H. Ryman himself would be very pleased to see and shoot over..

Through constant vigilance and relying on the accumulated knowledge my family before me passed on to me ~ and who themselves bred for shooting dogs which met the George H. Ryman standards as well ~ successful breedings have continued, the result of one such breeding which is pictured above with Ryman's Racket Boy, a setter bred by George H. Ryman himself..

It should also be said here that contrary to some of the present "marketing" techniques, there is no such thing as "modern" George H. Ryman standards ~ or for that matter, a "modern" Ryman setter. Setters bearing the "Ryman" brand name either meet George H. Ryman's timeless standards, or they don't.

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George H. Ryman's standards were developed over a period of time by him with much hard work, patience, vigilance and accumulated knowledge. .

Although many of the "Ryman" setters went through remarkably drastic changes during the ensuing "Calkins" era after his stroke and subsequent death, George H. Ryman's own set of strict standards remain the same today as they were when he was alive and actively breeding his famous shooting dogs.

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John's Great-Grandmother and Some of the Fetters Family Heritage English Setters

While sorting through the massive Fetters Family English Setter histories, we came across these photos which we'd like to share with you here.

Below you will also see a photo of John's Great-Grandmother, Mary B. Fetters, at the young age of 86, with a female Orange Belton Setter out of bench and field lines (note the dog's litter of pups in the background). The English Setters in the other three photos are also Fetters Family-bred and owned.

These photos are circa. 1950s, and we will be sharing more of the Fetters Family English Setter history and heritage with you in the near future.

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Thank You for Your Patience ...

As with the time it took to begin the input of information on the "Fetters Setters ~ The Ryman English Setter Story" page (which now has published on it the first five chapters of this amazing saga), we are currently organizing the beginnings of the vast amount of information which will be appearing here.
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Many of our documents, records, photos and other items have been in special climate-controlled storage for sometime due to our extensive traveling ~ and only recently has the weather begun breaking sufficiently enough that we have been able to begin the safe retrieval of them.
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The Fetters Family English Setter histories have been meticulously kept for five generations now ~ and are as massive in size and content as they are meticulous and inclusive ~ and only John can satisfactorily direct the organization of these documents, records and photos for publishing ~ and orchestrate the telling of this also-amazing saga of a family consistently and famously dedicated to the breeding, raising, training and hunting of this wonderful gun dog.
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Few if any of today's English Setter owners and/or breeders have the long history in this on-going endeavor and dedication to the breed found in John's family tree ~ and we hope a number of our readers will find it a compelling saga as well as intriguing.
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In the meantime, your patience is greatly appreciated. Check our "Fetters Setters ~ Classic Style English Setters ~ Home Page (found by clicking here) for timely updates whenever anything new is added to our main pages.
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As with all good things, we sincerely hope you will find the future contents of the "Fetters Setters ~ History and Heritage" page well worth the wait.

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